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spn: in retrospect

meh.

So I missed the first five minutes due to Lee being ass about the tv controller and well, being wrapped up in Plants Vs. Zombies. (I'd recovered from my addiction once, why oh why did I go back. SO MUCH FUN IN CO-OP MODE THOUGH.)

There are a lot of negative opinions behind this cut.

I never thought I'd be the one saying I think I'm done with this show. :/

Biggest problems: Predictability and PACING. So obviously new writers, it was ridiculous. Especially when Veritas captured them, and instead of a commercial break, it just faded to black and then came back with them tied up. A better writer would've figured out a way to fit their act breaks to the commercials. Plus the whole episode was just rather boring and slow.

Bobby's little bit where he told the truth was pretty much the highlight for me. "Did I ever tell you my first girlfriend was a-" LOL. Though I did enjoy what Dean said to Veritas, heart-breaking and OH POOR D:EAN as it was, it does seem like what he would think, with the low self-esteem he has.

I'm pissed about the way they're ending Dean and Lisa, if this is the end, but at least satisfied that we got to see that final conversation, that Lisa called back, and they didn't just LEAVE it with her not answering his calls.

Brett figured Sam would be immune to Veritas, just like he'd been immune to pretty much everything else in life (Croatoan, Lilith) but I wanted to argue that he shouldn't be since he'd been brought back. But unlike Dean, we don't actually know whether or not he's scar-free or whatnot, so I suppose that makes sense.

I still don't fully believe Sam, and his "I need help." I don't think he does, because I don't think he cares. Because...

Like 3/4 of fandom predicted, shockingly (my sarcasm can you feel it), Sam doesn't have a soul. It's all about the soul. He's Spike, essentially.

Remember when this show used to shock and surprise us?

So please, people that liked this episode, help me see what you liked so I feel like watching next week.

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I liked that uhm, they were brothers on a case. Sure, they're not very good at being brothers anymore but the basics were S1-ish. And I liked that there was some daylight and little things like that. :p

I don't really believe Sam and his "I need help" either. You say he's like Spike,

punnky_kitty said he was like Angelus. But I see more Buffy just outta heaven and keep picturing Sam talking to Tara trying to figure out how and why he came back "wrong".

That is one of the things about this whole season I've kinda liked, the s1-ish feel and the lack of angels and apocalypse.

Hmm. But Buffy CARED that she came back wrong, or thought she did at least. Sam says he cares and he 'needs help' but I just don't buy that. That's kinda why I think of Spike, how he was killing things because he kinda HAD to, but he doesn't really CARE about the outcome? I don't know, maybe neither is comparable just yet.

Hmm, yeah. There is that. Perhaps a little of one and the other.

If I may interject...
While Buffy cared that she came back "wrong", she also had soul and could tell something was majorly amiss with how she was feeling/reacting/non-reacting(?). Sam on the other hand, knows that something isn't the same as before, but he can't figure out WHAT. I think he's been trying to work out what's missing without letting on that anything is amiss. Unfortunately, he hasn't been doing a very good job of it.
YMMV

That makes sense, I suppose.

... THERE IS A CO-OP MODE!?!?!

*drools*

Haha there is on the 360. I don't know if there is on computers or phones or whatnot. Brett and I have been killin' zombies all day. :P

WAIT WAIT OMG WAS IT ONCE MORE WITH FEELING!?!?!!? O.O

I live in hell because I've been expelled ~from heaven~. Was it you that had the idea that Sam was pretty much HBIC downstairs and he LIKED it, so coming back up topside is actually a CHORE for him and he hates it? I think that might have been Smidgy, actually, now that I think about it.

I had this http://tahirire.livejournal.com/247330.html ...

Ahhhh, yeah, so it was both of you. Hers was this. (http://smidgy06.livejournal.com/1637817.html)

Lol, I had a plot bunny for the horror meme where it was like ...

Dean: WHO ARE YOU?
Sam: I'm not human. Duh.
Dean: WHERE'S MY BROTHER!?
Sam: In Hell, dumbass. Happy now?

But I figured eh, might as well skip ficcing things that may come true.

... close enough.

You (or some of the other writers frequenting the meme even) probably would've written it better than show. Or at least more creatively, if that makes sense.

Mmmm ... perhaps. People have trouble writing s6 Sam. I've gotten him down once or twice but it's difficult.

!! GO READ THIS (http://community.livejournal.com/treeshouse/19709.html). (and yes, I agree. Actually I haven't read much S6 fic at all...)

HOW DID I MISS THAT!?!?!?!? I mean, I haven't been reading much either - haven't had time - but AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Haha I thought you'd like that. I think she just posted it, and she was tweeting about it but I doubt she advertised it or anything so it would be easy to miss unless you follow Tree. :P

I'm not so sure that I liked it, but I didn't hate it. It had its moments, like Bobby possibly dating a man or a lesbian(I hope it was a guy, who was secretly Rufus in drag during a hunt).

I'm interested in seeing where they go with this. I mean, there are tons of ways they can handle it, they probably won't choose the best road, but it'll be interesting.

Also, that boobjob chick had nice boobs. Just sayin'.

HAHAAHAHA OMG I DIDN'T EVEN THINK OF THAT. I was thinking more like a succubus or a midget or something. OMG, A MAAAAAAAN!

There's part of my problem I think. There are tons of really creative ways they could do this. I actually really love the concept of Sam leaving his soul behind in hell. But I don't think they'll do a good job with it. I've lost faith in the writing.

GODDAMN SHE DID. I was like, DEAN GIVE HER A COMPLIMENT when he just walked off, so glad he came back and did.

"She" was totally a man and I am convinced that "she" was Rufus in drag. That is how they met. Rufus was after a succubus that only went after females in relationships and so he seduced poor Bobby and led him on long enough to gank it. *nods* BRB writing porny Rufy fanfic.

I don't think Dean is capable of not giving good boobs one last look. It would be OOC if he'd just let. Pretty as Lisa might be, here boobs were not fan-fucking-tastic like random-bar-chick's were.

ROFFLLLLLL. Seriously, Bobby + Rufus = win, in ANY FORM.

Dean isn't as sleazy as he used to be, and yeah Lisa's part of it but I mean, I can't even remember the last time they made a 'Dean's getting laid' reference. So it was nice to have that moment, yep.

D: Not in a sexual form. That's just plain creepy.

I miss sleazy manwhore Dean. I miss him so, so much. New devoted Dean is nice, but I long for him to be a big 'ole slut again.

I wanted to motorboat her boobs, they were that nice. idegaf that they were fake :D

Edited 2010-10-31 20:36 (UTC)

Lol, you. BRB writing you/bar-chick smut. :D

Weirdly enough I kind of liked (kind of, I definitely didn't LOVE it) the episode but agree with every little thing you said here.

I'm also very pissed about the Dean/Lisa ending because this was just so... lame, I don't even know.

and instead of a commercial break, it just faded to black and then came back with them tied up.

LOL that was exactly what I was thinking. I even already switched tabs expecting a commercial break. But oh well.

I agree that it was very predictable. I didn't exactly role my eyes but I wanted to. I do think Sam needs help and I think rationally he just KNOWS he needs help. He probably doesn't want it because he doesn't care about the way he is ticking right now but figuring that there is something missing inside him rationally probably tells him he needs back whatever is not there.
Then again, I am kinda expecting him to go like "Oh my soul is missing? Cool, you can keep it, I'm a better hunter like this anyway." Like - yeah not wanting help.

I dunno, the more I think about this ep, the less I like it again xD

Granted I was distracted for part of it so maybe when I watch it by myself I'll like it better, but I just...I don't know.

YES, LAME. And why the hell couldn't he tell her he was turning into a vampire? It's not like she doesn't know they exist, and the excuse of 'well he didn't want to let her know that he'd brought that into the house' doesn't really work either.

I got up to go to the bathroom and Brett was all NO COME BACK.

Yeah, I buy that Sam said he needs help because he knows that's how he's supposed to feel, but I don't buy that he actually wants it. And haha, yeah, well, without a soul he doesn't really have the concept of knowing that life's not all about being a good hunter anymore, I suppose.

I'm sorry, that's not my intention! LOL, but it's good to know I'm not the only one with issues with it.

And why the hell couldn't he tell her he was turning into a vampire?

That is what I'm arguing since last episode. She knows about this stuff, she has been smack in the middle of it, she knows who Dean is and she knows what kind of creatures exist - there is literally no point for Dean to not tell her that he was temporarily a vampire. I do understand that he doesn't want to sit at the dinner table and be all like "So, last night we totally killed a werewolf. He was stealing hearts and eating them but before he could rip Sam's heart out I shot him in the head. There was blood everywhere. And by the way, if you put some aspirin in the washing machine you will get out the blood easier. True story!" but explaining to her why he almost killed Ben is a whole other story because it wasn't really his fault, because he was different and because he thought he he had to be killed so he wanted to say goodbye. (Oh my god, a killer sentence!).

No, I'm actually not buying either that Sam wants help. Because if he WANTED help he'd told Dean about this earlier, explained it and let Dean help from the beginning. He might've talked to Dean about infiltrating the nest of vamps and would've told Dean there was a cure so all he had to do is resist the blood for long enough. Dean could've decided for himself if he wanted to get turned etc. If Sammy really wanted help this whole thing would've gone differently. I'm just afraid the writers are gonna screw this up epically. It can go so many different ways (good or bad) but they have to be very precise now or they're gonna screw this storyline up (even more!)

I just don't know what will happen when (if?) Sam gets his soul back. In what way will he change and how will his relationship to Dean change (for the better I suppose - no, I actually HOPE!).

Yeah. I have so much to say about this lol

It was uneven. It ended with a major Friday afternoon 2:57 slo mo shoot out. But at least it gave us answers earlier than we thought we'd get them. I would rather an obvious answer early than a creative answer that took all season.

But that's just me. I'm easy. I survived the X Files. I'm immune to a lot of bullshit. I can understand the annoyance.

FUCKING PLANTS VS ZOMBIES I WISH I KNEW HOW TO QUIT YOU.

I was wondering how long it would be till they slipped back into their "lol filler for 95% of the episode and then rushing everything at the end." I actually liked the episode overall, but the pacing was definitely off.

Sam not having a soul was so predictable, but I'd rather that than him being Lucifer or something. At least this makes him redeemable and gives them something to work toward.

I HAD RECOVERED FROM MY ADDICTION WHYYYYYYYYYY DID I GO BACK?

I suppose if we're just looking at it from a MotW standpoint it wasn't bad. Pacing was still too terrible for it to just be a call-back to S1. The filming was kinda shitty too, tbh, but I didn't comment on that because I don't know as much in that area.

Well they'd already said they were keeping Lucifer in hell, so I wasn't worried about that. But I am glad that it is SAM and not some doppelganger like Dean thought. That would've been annoying.

About Dean and Lisa - I called it last week, so that made me happy.

I was watching season one earlier, and this episode felt more like season one, except that it can't really be season one. They've come too far to end up back there.

I've read other comments already. I don't think that Sam is like Spike. I don't think he needs to kill. Like season one or two, he's a scared boy that doesn't know what's going on with himself, or why. It doesn't mean it was right for him to lie, but I can see why he did it.

I think someone or something brought Sam back. I'm not sure what, though. I think we'll find out more in December.

I agree, with the whole motw and the set-up it was more S1, but it just didn't have the quality, you know? the writing, the direction, and yeah, the characters have just changed too much to try and call back that feeling too much.

But without a soul, can he even BE scared? But yeah, I think I take back what I said about Spike. Because Spike was conscious of his decisions whether they were good or bad, and I don't think Sam is.

I wonder how long it'll drag out.

I'm still waiting for somebody to make a fanvid of Dean set to Violence Fetish by Disturbed. This ep had good scenes for it.

/random

I don't think Sam really feels "nothing."
Neither did Buffy. She claimed to feel nothing, but then she went on to say that the only time she felt something was when she was with Spike, and she was disgusted with herself. But that's not the same as being emotionless.
Sam was smiling as Dean was turned. You don't smile when you're blank. He was happy.

Huh. Dunno that song. But you should message Loki or another vid maker and suggest it to them. :P I mention her b/c I know she doesn't take requests, so to speak, but she does listen to songs people send her and lots of times uses them for vids. IDK how many people send her shit though since she's kinda popular.

But Buffy THOUGHT she'd come back wrong, was trying to figure out why. Sam...Sam says he needs help but I just don't think he cares. I think he prefers it this way because it makes him a better hunter. And THAT's why he was smiling, because Dean getting bitten was a way to hunt something down.

Like I said on Twitter, it took me 6 episodes, but I'm finally pissed.

But not for the same reasons you are. I don't think show was trying to be unpredictable at all. They've been setting up the "Sam has no soul" thing so we could see it from a mile away. That doesn't bother me though. There are still a lot of big mysteries that I don't think we can even begin to know the answer to: How did Sam lose his soul? How are they going to get it back? What the ever-loving fuck are they going to do in the meantime?

And THAT'S why I'm pissed, because...what the hell are they going to do in the meantime? D: I mean, are we going to have the rest of the season be angsty!Dean and soulless!douche!Sam? Because...DNW. And if Sam does manage to get his soul back before the finale and everything gets put right again, won't that be anticlimactic? I don't knoooowwww.

On the bright side, I love Dean more and more with each episode of this season. He's still got his snarky side and his funny, playful side. When he was talking to Bobby, I had a grin on my face the whole time. Sam may not be Sam, but Dean is more Dean than he has been in at least two seasons I think. It makes me happy. <3

Also, I doubt this is the END end of Dean/Lisa. We might not see them for a while, but I doubt Dean will let it just end like that. Especially since Lisa was under the truth spell when she was talking to him.

I probably didn't help...>.>

Oh god I didn't even think about that. I was glad they didn't drag out the 'what's wrong with Sam' part of the storyline but that's probably so they can drag out the 'who's doing this to Sam' part. :////

Dean has MATURED, I think, and I like that. He's not as broken because he's realized he's broken, if that makes sense? I could elaborate more, I suppose. I could talk about Dean all the time, frankly, lol.

Your Dean love helped. :)

I'm not sure where I stand with this episode - or this season. I don't hate it but I will say that my interest has not been peaked as it has been previously. I was skipping ahead A LOT as I watched. I'm not done with the show but... meh... I'm not as all "OMG!" as I was maybe last season, or even before that.

I'm honestly hoping that by hiatus they find Sam's soul and start something new for the rest of the season like maybe deal with the alpha storyline, I don't know (though I doubt that will happen) because I don't think I can take an entire season of soulless Sammy and Dean angsting over it. The line "We'll be watching every move you make" in the promo made me cringe.

I kind of just want them to be brothers again ~~(you know, like we were promised they would be. ALL SUMMER -_-)~~

Ugh, yes. But at least theyr'e doing a little what they promised in that the show does have a more S1 feel. The problem being that they've come to far to go back to MotW.

My attention was waning last season, but APOCALYPSE was a pretty big attention-graber as a whole.

~EVERY MOVE YOU MAKE, EVERY STEP YOU TAKE. EVERY SINGLE DAY EVERY TIME YOU PRAY I'LL BE WATCHING YOU~

Yes, I totally agree with you there. I like it better when there's an overlying arch anyway then the MotW, but that's just me.

APOCALYPSE usually is.

The ending just... I was somewhere between shocked and furious. Now, I don't know what I am.

I can agree with what other people were saying that it's like the Spike/soul storyline, at least for me - only in that I did not like it and wanted Spike to go back to NOT having a soul and NOT chasing after Buffy like a puppy. Only in this case I want Sam to go BACK to having a soul and... chasing after his brother like a puppy? (Okay, maybe not. YOU GET WHAT I'M SAYING THOUGH.)

Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong I LOVE the MotW episodes of season one and two, but I think they were better at balancing them then than now. Once you go apocalypse, you just can't go back.

I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I hated the tail-end of season 6 of Buffy. I hated the idea that Spike would go and get a SOUL for her, it was so ridiculous. But then...season 7 Spike, not really the beginning, but after he recovered and Buffy trusted him and they were FRIENDS, I liked that part. Sam needs to have a soul just to be SAM again. I miss that.

I've been pretty 'eh' about most of the episodes so far. Each episode has its moments, but I haven't really liked them much, to be honest. I think the one I liked best of this season so far was Weekend At Bobby's. Ha, and I agree that Bobby's revelations were the best part of this episode.

How much was Cas's part a 'Baby, I'm sorry I cheated, but I'll do this for you!' type of thing? It amused me, at least.

Ah well. Can simply hope that it'll get a bit better, but not holding my breath. Maybe they're just taking a while to hit their stride. Maybe...

Weekend at Bobby's was my favorite too. I think a lot of that was directing choices, though, and I'm not just saying that because it was Jensen. That episode just...flowed better than any of the episodes nowadays.

*shrug* I liked the ep. I like that we finally got some answers about things. I didn't really like that a truth-curse type of thing had to be employed to do it, but whatever.
I thought it was interesting that Sam didn't realize he was lying, or rather, not telling the truth (there is a difference). Since he doesn't have a soul, perhaps he doesn't KNOW what the truth is? If your soul is your moral compass, your conscience, your WHATEVER, then it would make sense for Sam to be 'immune' to Veritas. If you don't know that what you're saying is a lie, you can't prove it's not the truth, right?

And I DO think Sam was sincere about wanting and needing help. I think maybe he's finally figured out that he can't "fix" himself on his own. He said he's known something was off for a while now and he's obviously been trying to figure WHAT and how to make it better, but I think he's come to the realization that he can't do it alone. Also, he seemed surprised by Dean's outburst that he could've died in the vampire's nest... he really believed Dean could handle himself, alone, and that the cure would work. He didn't see the moral or ethical consequences of letting his brother get turned. I think he's been taking cues from those around him for how he's supposed to act. Sam mentioned before that Samuel is a lot like Dean, and Dean mentioned that Sam's been acting like him (Dean) lately. Sam is acting like the one person he's always trusted and looked up to... which is something I would expect from him if he doesn't know how to act like himself.
(Granted, I don't think Jared is doing the best job, but he's trying to make it work in his own way)

Honestly, the way Lisa & Dean ended? That was my 2nd choice if they weren't going to crispy-fry her.

I'm excited to see where they go with this soulless!Sam schtick and see what answers we get. Aside from Nov 26th, we have new eps airing every week from now until second Friday of December. That's plenty of time to get some MEAT in the season's plot-arc :D

As for the predictability... I've ALWAYS found the show predictable. Maybe it's because I watch too much television, maybe it's because I've always been good at seeing the bigger picture and figuring out the endgame before it's really started, but I've never really been surprised by anything in this show. And that's in regards to EVERYTHING I've watched/read. *shrug* Maybe that's why I don't have patience for detective novels? lol

Was your comment too long for one comment? LOLOLOL. I guess I've just gotten more picky about predictability. I've always been good at figuring shit out, too, it's why I hate mystery novels and most incarnations of Sherlock Holmes except the new one which you should still watch, lol, but I don't know, with some things, it's still the enjoyment of watching the character solve the mystery for me. And I'm not getting that with Supernatural lately, I guess.

OHHO I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THAT. So HE thought he was telling the truth? at least to Veritas. He had to know he was lying to Dean, though.

I hope they don't drag soulless!Sam out for the whole season, though. I NEED BROTHERLY LOVE BACK WE WERE PROMISED.

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meh.

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